The Poop has hit the fan !
10-16-2018, 12:14 AM
#102
Equal protection
AMA is going to try for an exemption for their members only as a way to drive membership. The problem is the FAA is smart enough to know that any rule that allows that is inviting constitutional challenge (equal protection under law) unless they create a method for non-members to enjoy the same privilege.
I think AMA should concentrate on creating reasons why people WANT to join AMA. Continuing to try to use law to make its members “special” citizens - with more privileges in PUBLIC airspace than other citizens - will fail ultimately.
I think AMA should concentrate on creating reasons why people WANT to join AMA. Continuing to try to use law to make its members “special” citizens - with more privileges in PUBLIC airspace than other citizens - will fail ultimately.
10-16-2018, 04:01 AM
#103
First off how do you know for certain that AMA is pushing maditory membership with the FAA? Do you have any supporting documentation other then Richard Hansen talking out of line in one Op Ed?
Second, there are thousands of us that DO want to join the AMA as we do see value for our 75.00. IMO you don't see value because you choose not to take advantage of all the AMA has to offer. To me it's like having a job and not taking advantage of the health care, 401K, education assistance, paid vacation etc and then complain about how poorly you are compensated. IMO you are the person who chooses to make your experience with the AMA a bad one by getting hung up on a few negative aspects.
Second, there are thousands of us that DO want to join the AMA as we do see value for our 75.00. IMO you don't see value because you choose not to take advantage of all the AMA has to offer. To me it's like having a job and not taking advantage of the health care, 401K, education assistance, paid vacation etc and then complain about how poorly you are compensated. IMO you are the person who chooses to make your experience with the AMA a bad one by getting hung up on a few negative aspects.
10-16-2018, 07:25 AM
#104
Banned
First off how do you know for certain that AMA is pushing maditory membership with the FAA? Do you have any supporting documentation other then Richard Hansen talking out of line in one Op Ed?
Second, there are thousands of us that DO want to join the AMA as we do see value for our 75.00. IMO you don't see value because you choose not to take advantage of all the AMA has to offer. To me it's like having a job and not taking advantage of the health care, 401K, education assistance, paid vacation etc and then complain about how poorly you are compensated. IMO you are the person who chooses to make your experience with the AMA a bad one by getting hung up on a few negative aspects.
Second, there are thousands of us that DO want to join the AMA as we do see value for our 75.00. IMO you don't see value because you choose not to take advantage of all the AMA has to offer. To me it's like having a job and not taking advantage of the health care, 401K, education assistance, paid vacation etc and then complain about how poorly you are compensated. IMO you are the person who chooses to make your experience with the AMA a bad one by getting hung up on a few negative aspects.
The whole argument over the meaning of "within the programming" is just one example supporting the idea. Not to mention years of history of pushing the idea that one MUST join the AMA for any number of reasons.
Just look at the whole Sport Fliers debacle for another example. The corporate Tea Leaves are there for anyone willing to have a look. But ignorance is Bliss. And most people don't like to rock the boat. But if the boat can't tolerate a little rocking, maybe we should consider getting a new boat?
And Franklin IS an AMA member. I'm not but I have often suggested to new bees that they look at the AMA and decide for themselves. Surprisingly most, if they have the option, choose not to join. Most who do join do so because the local club requires it (mandated membership). Few actually do it just for the insurance.
10-16-2018, 07:27 AM
#105
Banned
I could easily ask you , Hydro Junkie and Initforfun the same question. What is your justification for mounting a group attack on my thread? Can’t it be enough that you can justify that you see no value in the AMA and I can justify that I do see the value and we part ways in this thread being OK that others have different perspectives than our own. Why after I gave an answer to the opening topic with zero negative or passive aggressive comments do you feel the need to stir the pot again?
Point made!
10-16-2018, 03:21 PM
#106
How do YOU know they aren't?
The whole argument over the meaning of "within the programming" is just one example supporting the idea. Not to mention years of history of pushing the idea that one MUST join the AMA for any number of reasons.
Just look at the whole Sport Fliers debacle for another example. The corporate Tea Leaves are there for anyone willing to have a look. But ignorance is Bliss. And most people don't like to rock the boat. But if the boat can't tolerate a little rocking, maybe we should consider getting a new boat?
And Franklin IS an AMA member. I'm not but I have often suggested to new bees that they look at the AMA and decide for themselves. Surprisingly most, if they have the option, choose not to join. Most who do join do so because the local club requires it (mandated membership). Few actually do it just for the insurance.
The whole argument over the meaning of "within the programming" is just one example supporting the idea. Not to mention years of history of pushing the idea that one MUST join the AMA for any number of reasons.
Just look at the whole Sport Fliers debacle for another example. The corporate Tea Leaves are there for anyone willing to have a look. But ignorance is Bliss. And most people don't like to rock the boat. But if the boat can't tolerate a little rocking, maybe we should consider getting a new boat?
And Franklin IS an AMA member. I'm not but I have often suggested to new bees that they look at the AMA and decide for themselves. Surprisingly most, if they have the option, choose not to join. Most who do join do so because the local club requires it (mandated membership). Few actually do it just for the insurance.
I never claimed they weren't did I? I was only asking Lord Franklin if he had any supporting documentation. I will gladly accept it if he does. He has also not shown proof that he is in fact an AMA member. My number is 22554, will he return the favor? Fact is there is no other boat and there is not going to be one. Why continue to bring up a point that does not exist? Please show me something that supports " Few actually do it for the insurance " other then that being your opinion. I currently do not own a home so yes the insurance is important to me. A few years ago a member crashed an electric airplane in an adjacent field to ours ( Sacramento Area Modelers ). He was also not a home owner. A claim was filed and AMA paid the 30K claim so yes they do make good on the insurance aspect. Lastly how on earth are you able to know what I will and will not claim? I'm really starting to see some similarities between you and a Ghostly RCG member.
10-16-2018, 05:14 PM
#107
I guess my two biggest reasons for AMA membership are the insurance , and the fact that I think our hobby having a national organization representing/advocating for it gives it a bit more hobby cred than it would otherwise have without it . There were plenty of years that I wasn't in a club , so no direct club mandated need for AMA insurance , but I kept my AMA membership active anyways .
10-16-2018, 05:41 PM
#108
I do feel that having a strong CBO is what is best for our hobby. Even though the AMA is out gunned to fight the FAA, they are better then nothing. That's why I beleive that if someone truly wanted to do what is best for the hobby as a whole they would be advocating for the AMA and encouraging people to join. There are strength in numbers and right now our hobby needs representation with strength. Joining AMA gives them those numbers and finances to fight in our behalf. Constantly bashing our only CBO fighting for our hobby and telling people there is no value in being a member and attempting to reduce membership only weakens our position. Think about it, when the AMA is busy in an attempt to fight for our hobby and really needs " All hands on deck " we have someone calling them and practically demanding the EC minutes be published. IMO that really does look like a ploy to pull resources off of what the priority should have been. I just simply find it difficult to beleive someone is advocating for the good of our hobby when statements like the above are made. Lord Franklin has made it clear multiple times how valuable his time is yet wants us to beleive he spend this much time on RCU and RCG without some sort of payday?
10-17-2018, 05:00 AM
#109
Banned
I never claimed they weren't did I? I was only asking Lord Franklin if he had any supporting documentation. I will gladly accept it if he does. He has also not shown proof that he is in fact an AMA member. My number is 22554, will he return the favor? Fact is there is no other boat and there is not going to be one. Why continue to bring up a point that does not exist? Please show me something that supports " Few actually do it for the insurance " other then that being your opinion. I currently do not own a home so yes the insurance is important to me. A few years ago a member crashed an electric airplane in an adjacent field to ours ( Sacramento Area Modelers ). He was also not a home owner. A claim was filed and AMA paid the 30K claim so yes they do make good on the insurance aspect. Lastly how on earth are you able to know what I will and will not claim? I'm really starting to see some similarities between you and a Ghostly RCG member.
Fact is you're in denial. You don't want what he and others have to say about the AMA to be true. On the flip, you expect us to accept your word at face value without your having to accept ours. I saw that right off when I started posting here.
10-17-2018, 08:17 AM
#110
I think you are trying to read more into what I am saying then what is actually there. I have not denied anything Lord Franklin has stated when it comes to the shortcomings within the AMA. Please read what it is I say and stop with the embellishments. I am fully aware of the fact that Lord Franklin is currently a member. The reason why he won’t publish his number is IMO simply to be defiant in order to maintain the perspective of superiority. This way his subjects are easier to manipulate. At the end of the day the only real gripe I have with him is that I don’t think he is honest about his motives. I feel that in his attacks against the AMA that he truly has forgotten about the membership. IMO if one really wants to know how the membership feels about their organization then you need to participate. You need to be out flying with fellow members and get real time feedback. Sitting in front of a computer and cherry picking snippets that suit your agenda don’t cut it.
10-17-2018, 10:25 AM
#111
Banned
I think you are trying to read more into what I am saying then what is actually there. I have not denied anything Lord Franklin has stated when it comes to the shortcomings within the AMA. Please read what it is I say and stop with the embellishments. I am fully aware of the fact that Lord Franklin is currently a member. The reason why he won’t publish his number is IMO simply to be defiant in order to maintain the perspective of superiority. This way his subjects are easier to manipulate. At the end of the day the only real gripe I have with him is that I don’t think he is honest about his motives. I feel that in his attacks against the AMA that he truly has forgotten about the membership. IMO if one really wants to know how the membership feels about their organization then you need to participate. You need to be out flying with fellow members and get real time feedback. Sitting in front of a computer and cherry picking snippets that suit your agenda don’t cut it.
10-17-2018, 11:48 AM
#113
Well guys , one thing is for sure , this is a pivotal moment in both the AMA's and the hobby's histories , because if the 400 foot monster looming over our hobby is not slain , I believe both are doomed . It has been my belief for many years that the FAA has always believed that we were strictly adhering to AC 91 57 and not flying over 400 feet , even though the soft language they used appeared to leave adherence open to choice . Having spent close to two years earning an FAA A/P mechanic's license in a course of study written by the FAA I feel I have a pretty good idea of what the FAA means when they use soft words like "should" and "shall" rather than "will" and "must" , writing in a gentlemanly style as befit the status of the airmen they are addressing , with words like "should" really meaning "will" .....
10-17-2018, 06:21 PM
#115
Banned
So please keep your man crush to yourself.
Last edited by Appowner; 10-17-2018 at 06:25 PM.
10-17-2018, 06:24 PM
#116
Banned
Well guys , one thing is for sure , this is a pivotal moment in both the AMA's and the hobby's histories , because if the 400 foot monster looming over our hobby is not slain , I believe both are doomed . It has been my belief for many years that the FAA has always believed that we were strictly adhering to AC 91 57 and not flying over 400 feet , even though the soft language they used appeared to leave adherence open to choice . Having spent close to two years earning an FAA A/P mechanic's license in a course of study written by the FAA I feel I have a pretty good idea of what the FAA means when they use soft words like "should" and "shall" rather than "will" and "must" , writing in a gentlemanly style as befit the status of the airmen they are addressing , with words like "should" really meaning "will" .....
However, I do believe the 400 foot will be no problem for a majority of modelers out there. The glider guys are screwed as are the pattern crowd. At least when flying pattern. But I think the vast majority, the sport flyers, will have little to no problem with it.
10-17-2018, 11:56 PM
#118
(1) Direct quote from exchange on AMA website during Q&A after I got my letter from the FAA
(2) Direct quote from MA magazine column by AMA EVP
(3) Direct quote from AMA video
Go read the July 2018 EC minutes to see the concern over financials.
To me it's like having a job and not taking advantage of the health care, 401K, education assistance, paid vacation etc and then complain about how poorly you are compensated. IMO you are the person who chooses to make your experience with the AMA a bad one by getting hung up on a few negative aspects.
Last edited by franklin_m; 10-18-2018 at 05:05 AM. Reason: Punctuation, one added sentence "Go read..."
10-18-2018, 03:40 AM
#119
Moderator
For the serious hobbyist, AMA membership makes a lot of sense. The cost isn't much of an issue compared to how much we spend anyway. We want the community of the club scene too, which the AMA gives us access to. We want to fly bigger planes which we need a flying site for and for which insurance is a financially prudent idea.
For the casual hobbyist, the guy who maybe only flies once a month at a park and never plans to advance beyond foamy sport planes or RTF quadcopters, AMA membership doesn't make as much sense. The question to consider is whether or not that person is creating a problem. Some definitely are. Most aren't usually. An AMA membership requirement effectively eliminates the casual pilot from our hobby. Whether or not that would be a good thing is another question to consider.
For the casual hobbyist, the guy who maybe only flies once a month at a park and never plans to advance beyond foamy sport planes or RTF quadcopters, AMA membership doesn't make as much sense. The question to consider is whether or not that person is creating a problem. Some definitely are. Most aren't usually. An AMA membership requirement effectively eliminates the casual pilot from our hobby. Whether or not that would be a good thing is another question to consider.
10-18-2018, 03:43 AM
#120
Banned
Actually Speedy, you and the AMA have a lot in common. Neither of you provide any value to me. Except maybe for the occasional chuckle.
10-18-2018, 04:05 AM
#121
Banned
For the serious hobbyist, AMA membership makes a lot of sense. The cost isn't much of an issue compared to how much we spend anyway. We want the community of the club scene too, which the AMA gives us access to. We want to fly bigger planes which we need a flying site for and for which insurance is a financially prudent idea.
For the casual hobbyist, the guy who maybe only flies once a month at a park and never plans to advance beyond foamy sport planes or RTF quadcopters, AMA membership doesn't make as much sense. The question to consider is whether or not that person is creating a problem. Some definitely are. Most aren't usually. An AMA membership requirement effectively eliminates the casual pilot from our hobby. Whether or not that would be a good thing is another question to consider.
For the casual hobbyist, the guy who maybe only flies once a month at a park and never plans to advance beyond foamy sport planes or RTF quadcopters, AMA membership doesn't make as much sense. The question to consider is whether or not that person is creating a problem. Some definitely are. Most aren't usually. An AMA membership requirement effectively eliminates the casual pilot from our hobby. Whether or not that would be a good thing is another question to consider.
AMA insurance for the individual member is secondary to all others that person might have. Slam a model into a car and your car insurance will cover it before AMA pays a dime. Ditto with a house and homeowners covering first. Many homeowners and renters policies will cover hobby activities. AMA has for years conned the clubs into believing the AMA is the only way to go. That it is somehow a mandatory part of the hobby. The SFA proved different.
Clubs? Don't get me started. Most clubs are nothing more than a microcosm of AMA HQ. Advancing the hobby is fine as long as you don't disrupt their ability to play. I've visited many clubs over the years and walked away from half of them simply due to the various attitudes I witnessed. Don't miss any of them. Then there's the club politics.......
I want to fly something I built myself. I want to study it in flight and learn the whys and wherefores of it. I don't want some jerk endangering my work by flying a reverse pattern, over the pits or hovering over the runway denying it from others. Or letting his dog or young kids run loose in the pits. I've seen all of this numerous times over the years.
A little cold for it today but I can fly whenever conditions allow from my own back yard.
AMA needs me more than I need the AMA.
Last edited by Appowner; 10-18-2018 at 04:07 AM.
10-18-2018, 06:52 AM
#122
All joking aside , the hobby's "Earth shattering KaBoom" will come if the AMA cannot get the 400 foot language mitigated that is presently included in the FAA rules we had to agree to abide by when renewing our FAA S/UAS registrations . I agree with Appowner , the average sport flyer will be mostly OK with 400 feet , but , just about the entire rest of the hobby requires quite a bit more headroom for their operations . Sailplanes ? Pattern ? Turbine powered airplanes ? All of them need a Hell of a lot more sky than 400 feet is gonna allow ! I'm old , and won't live to see the effects of a hard 400 foot limit on our hobby 20 or maybe even 10 years from now , but make no mistake this IS the AMA's "Do or die" moment . I'm left hoping like Hell that the AMA does in fact have a cohesive plan for battling the biggest threat to our hobby since the frequency allocation negotiations of 40 years ago .....
10-18-2018, 08:16 AM
#123
All joking aside , the hobby's "Earth shattering KaBoom" will come if the AMA cannot get the 400 foot language mitigated that is presently included in the FAA rules we had to agree to abide by when renewing our FAA S/UAS registrations . I agree with Appowner , the average sport flyer will be mostly OK with 400 feet , but , just about the entire rest of the hobby requires quite a bit more headroom for their operations . Sailplanes ? Pattern ? Turbine powered airplanes ? All of them need a Hell of a lot more sky than 400 feet is gonna allow ! I'm old , and won't live to see the effects of a hard 400 foot limit on our hobby 20 or maybe even 10 years from now , but make no mistake this IS the AMA's "Do or die" moment . I'm left hoping like Hell that the AMA does in fact have a cohesive plan for battling the biggest threat to our hobby since the frequency allocation negotiations of 40 years ago .....
My question at that point would be if the FAA does mandate that to be exempt from the 400’ limit you need to be a CBO member, how many are going to fight it? IMO from what most guys believe is that the limit would only affect the competition minded and not the average sport flier. That being the case why not let the competition guys have the CBO and everyone else do their own thing? Isn’t that pretty much what we are doing now anyways?
10-18-2018, 08:58 AM
#124
My question at that point would be if the FAA does mandate that to be exempt from the 400’ limit you need to be a CBO member, how many are going to fight it? IMO from what most guys believe is that the limit would only affect the competition minded and not the average sport flier. That being the case why not let the competition guys have the CBO and everyone else do their own thing? Isn’t that pretty much what we are doing now anyways?
As it stands now the FAA's language is direct and to the point with no wiggle room , all hobby S/UAS are to not exceed 400 feet . If the AMA can get us members a CBO only exemption from that then that's great ! That will be the first crack in the 400 foot monster's armor . I do believe there then would be a court challenge from some non CBO members (Something akin to Taylor VS FAA comes to mind) and hopefully maybe a bit more of the 400 foot monster will perish . My biggest fear ? Truthfully , I honestly believe that the companies who want to have drone delivery services have already cut their deal with the FAA to have us out of the way of their commerce , and that the 400 foot limit will ultimately strangle what's left of "Traditional RC flying" .
Big money ALWAYS wins ......